Tackle Interview #7: Ben Cohen

Not for Ben Cohen the usual post-sports career clichés. No race towards inane punditry. No premature stabs at management. And a welcome swerving of They Think It’s a Question Of Sport-style japery.  As we meet on a sunny February afternoon at St Pancras International, the former England rugby player is the proud new owner of an honorary degree from his hometown of Northampton. Partly awarded for his achievements on the pitch, it’s also recognition for his new day job. Cohen’s Stand-Up campaign is the world’s first foundation dedicated to anti-bullying and aims to rid sport of homophobia. Tackle talked to him about football’s problems on the pitch, Beckham’s influence and fusing personal tragedy with a mass gay following.

Did you grow up with gay friends around you?

My cousins were lesbians and they were very close to my dad. We ‘re from a quite accepting family. Being in the nightclub industry my dad was a very welcoming guy, it’s sort of been bred into us.

You must have experienced a lot of that scene from an early age? Did you meet many characters?                                                             

Yes my dad was a character too, so I knew a lot of people round where I lived. By the time my rugby career took off I’d seen a lot of stuff.

How much of a big deal was football growing up?How much of a big deal was football growing up?

Football was - is - everything in my family. My uncle won in 1966. My dad was a very good footballer, apparently better than my uncle, but didn’t make it for whatever reason. But George went on to do great things.

Was it ever a career option for you?

I wasn’t pushed into doing anything really. I found rugby by accident when I was 12 years old.

The rugby environment has always seemed more refined than football. In the nineties, for instance, it seemed distant from the prevailing lad culture?

And the violence! In the early nineties football still had a big hangover from all the fights. Racism too was around for a long time. Football came back on the scene for me around Euro 96 it was all about ’thirty years of hurt’ and it brought my uncle and that team out of the wilderness really. I made my England debut in 2000. In 2002 we played Wales on the Saturday and I went to watch Fulham v Spurs on the Sunday. It was interesting, I remember it being very hostile and one thing that got me was in the box someone asked a question  ‘who went to the rugby yesterday?’ and about 95% put their hand up. So it was interesting to see how people change their temperaments.

And now? What can football learn from rugby?                                                         

I think the football crowds have got better but it needs to clean its act up on the pitch. Footballers should be role models I think the crowds in rugby are fantastic. I’m sure there are isolated incidents but very few. I think the players are more respectful. Having said that I think the new breed of rugby player are becoming like footballers. Some of them forget the hard work that got them into that position. Sport for me has to play its part within society. The more fans you get whether you like it or not - you’re a role model.

Within football there seems to be this consensus from the authorities that team mates wont accept it an out player or fans wont?

How do you mean the authorities?

The FA, PFA people like Max Clifford…

It’s interesting Gareth Thomas came out at the top of his game. He was respected for his sport and not his sexual orientation. We know now sports brands are putting pressure on players to be role models in society and they are not just held responsive from their clubs but from their sports brands too, people like Nike are re-writing contracts. So if a high profile player comes out are they going to get rid of him for his sexual orientation? No. What’s needed is education.

I had a conversation with Clare Balding about the best time to come out. There is no right answer. For me it’s the top of your game, but if you come out earlier it’s going to hinder your chances of making it big time, which is completely wrong.

Is that still the case?

I think so. I think it happens at a really low level, which actually stops people.

What about banter from fans, would a more relaxed attitude to fans banter help? Is there too much fear?

What do you mean by fear?

Managers wont talk about it, fans cant banter about it? When I say banter I mean Brighton fans chanting ‘Does your boyfriend know you’re here?’

Have you seen the footage? I’ve seen the whole footage of that. Three people – they said the whole south stand – it was three people. It comes down to education and how you are educated at school because one of those people wasn’t long out of school

Outside of David Beckham you are probably the biggest sports icon in the gay community…

I think you’ll find he’s second! (laughs)

Why do you think he’s not spoken out more?

I think there are different circumstances for different people. My circumstances were I understand what emotional damage it causes to have someone taken away from you through violence. Then I came across a fan page on Facebook with 37,000 people. For me, being a sportsman can make a difference. I’ve got a fantastic following for someone who’s not that famous, who’s not like a David Beckham. So it’s time to grow that loyal fan base by speaking up on homophobia and the emotional damage of bullying.

How useful would it be if he spoke out?

I think it would be very effective, definitely.

It feels like the arrival of Stand-up is timely given the use of the word gay as a negative has been so prolific recently - was that a big concern?

Yeah I think so, it is known as a negative. It’s used to put people down as a slang word. It’s sad, very sad. It’s education - work places, schools challenging those people. That’s the whole point of Stand Up, to stand alongside.

Did you suffer bullying? Were you motivated by personal experience?

Not really, I always stick up for people, the underdog, and am a caring person anyway. I have 50% hearing - I get the piss taken out of me all the time but don’t class it as bullying. I think what happened between my 20s and 30s has taught me a lot about life.

And that period of your life influenced what you are doing now?  

Having your dad brutally attacked and murdered, seeing your mum try to commit suicide twice. I always thought people committing suicide were selfish people because I always think lives worth living…but seeing what my mum went through (pauses)… I could get rid of my anger I could vent it on my pitch. Under no uncertain terms I always say I got myself in that world cup winning team because of the anger from what happened to my dad and wanting to win a world cup for my dad.

When you retired did you still feel the need to vent? Hence stand up?

No, not at all. I wanted to do something…break down stereotypes.

And being straight helps?

Yes not many people get that! The importance of me being straight is the most important single thing.

It’s unique

Exactly and it is making a massive difference

Finally, how long before a gay footballer comes out in England?

You know what? I don’t know. Even if it was ok tomorrow, and gay footballers were welcomed with open arms that person might not want to come out

I guess it’s about shaping the environment in the meantime?

It’s education. I’ve learned and am learning a lot about what people who are gay and struggle with sexual orientation have to go through. Living a lie is hard work. If you can imagine that as a sportsman not coming out, not having a love life, literally top secret, scared of getting outed. It’s got to be hard work. I couldn’t live like that. We’re educating people. Life is worth living.